00:00 We're talking about sustainability as it applies to your applied fall fertilizer. What can you do to maximize your fertilizer investment 00:07 and still be sustainable? That's the subject in today's cutting curve. Welcome to Extreme ags Cutting the Curve podcast, 00:14 where real farmers share real insights and real results to help you improve your farming operation. This episode is brought to you by Simon Innovation, 00:24 protect your crops and maximize yield with a full lineup of innovative precision tools engineered 00:29 to enhance the efficiency and accuracy of your sprayer. Visit simon innovations.com and start getting more ROI out of your sprayer. 00:37 And now here's your host, Damien Mason. Hey there. Welcome to another fantastic episode of, uh, cutting the Curve here. 00:44 I got a great one for you today. I've got Kelly Garrett, one of the founders of Extreme agm. We've got Scott Lay with Grason. 00:49 We're talking about sustainability and your dry fertility program. You hear a lot from the guys about doing what you can 00:56 to wean off of such massive amounts of applied dry fertilizer and then using applied, uh, 01:01 liquid fertilizer through the season. That doesn't mean that we don't still utilize dry fertility programs. 01:06 Obviously we have to. It makes sense. Also, it probably fits into your program. We're heading into fall. You probably are starting 01:12 to think about the fall applied fertilizer. How can you maximize its application? How can you also make sure that it's sustainable? 01:19 Because you know what, for years we flung fertilizer out there and it didn't get all the benefit 01:24 that we should have gotten out of it. What if I told you we can do all of that and also be budget conscious? 01:31 Because let's face it, we're in a low commodity environment. All right. Um, the product 01:34 that you're talking about is a product called Titan xc, but that's not really the story here, Kelly. It's really about what you can do to be sustainable 01:41 and also get your fertility, uh, where it needs to be, when it needs to be there. You're throwing fertilizer out there in September, October, 01:48 November, and I expect it to not be utilized until May. How does this work? Well, it, it can be tied up in the soil. 01:55 Damien, especially the phosphorus, especially here in western Iowa. We have base saturation calcium problems. 02:01 We can have high mag problems that can push the cal, that can push the potassium outta the way and tie up the phosphorus. 02:07 A product like Titan keeps it more available. And what, what we're really about is how lean can we run the agronomy 02:14 and become more sustainable. Lower RCI score and increase profitability at the same time, There's gonna be a bunch of pushback on 02:24 where I can spend my money. Scott lay, um, you know, sub $4 corn, uh, $9 range soybeans. 02:33 It makes every producer say, okay, I can't go without the seed. Um, I I need the acres. I gotta pay the cash rent. 02:40 Where can I back off? And it's always about inputs. Uh, a fertilizer coating seems like a smart way to save money. 02:49 Like, I'm gonna still put out the fertilizer, but I'm not gonna treat it because they'll save me a few bucks. 02:55 How would you respond if I sat at the table, told you that was my strategy to, um, uh, get to break even or above? Damien? The first thing I would say is, uh, 03:05 in the interest of full disclosure, I, I understand that that algebra that goes into crop inputs and, 03:11 and understanding the economics for the 2025 season, because I too come from a farm operation. So I not only, um, I I fully understand that. 03:22 I think what we would begin to think about, and you, you talked about it earlier in, in the, in the beginning, where it needs to be 03:28 and when it needs to be there. So the, the objective is still whether we're applying, um, a, a full replacement rate of p 03:35 and k is, is perhaps you would under normal economic conditions or something, uh, a reduced rate. The objective becomes how do we get more in a plan available 03:44 form that Kelly referenced before? So I I, I think, uh, again, there is, could a, a grower not apply any dry P or K 03:54 and still raise a crop next year? Absolutely. The challenge is, and I think we all recognize this, 03:59 there is a longer term consequence to doing that in terms of diminishing your, your soil p and K level. 04:04 So how do we find that balance, uh, uh, of not completely depleting the, the proverbial bank while being budget conscious 04:11 and trying to maximize productivity for the 2025 season Aren't most at this day and age here we are fall of 24 recording this. 04:20 Aren't we at a point where almost all dry fertility gets treated because we understand that you're, you know, 04:26 one plus one equals more than two? Uh, unfortunately, no. And again, as this is, as we talk about Titan, 04:33 we're talking specifically about phosphorus and potash. If we were talking about dry urea or, uh, liquid, UAN, certainly a higher percent 04:41 of nitrogen is treated to prevent loss. But as it relates to p and K, unfortunately a lot of folks, uh, uh, 04:48 you know, spread the rocks. See, that's a, a bit of a diminishing term, those fertilizer PRIs out and hope for the best. 04:56 But the fact is, uh, applying the rocks, the fertilizer PRIs on whether it's fall or spring, that's simply step one in the equation. 05:03 Okay, step two that a lot of folks ignore it, let me, is how do we get more in a plan available form? 05:10 And that's the critical part I think we need to talk about. All right, so let's talk about both of those things. 05:14 All right, well, so spreading rocks. Um, Kelly made the point, you know, here he is in Iowa. I'm over here in Indiana. 05:20 I think you're in, well, you're, you're in Illinois, right? So, um, so hence, by the way, dear listener, 05:25 if you're listening, you can't see this. If you're watching on Acres TV or on our, there's a Dick BCUs bottle head 05:32 bobblehead behind his shoulder. And, um, as I say, fine tradition of defensive players up there, Mike Singletary in my era, 05:40 loved watching that guy. All right, what do we got here? We got two things. We're spreading out the rocks. We're putting that out there. 05:46 It does seem interesting that for years we flung that stuff out there after the combine, uh, is out of the field and we expect it 05:53 to be there in May, June and July. It does seem kind of like, here it is, the year 2024. Surely to God we can do better. 06:02 Are we really not coating, putting some kind of treatment on all these fertility products that we put out in fall? 06:08 They're, they're not, A lot of farmers aren't doing it. They're skeptical. They, uh, I believe Titan would be one of the things that would fall into the snake oil category 06:17 and the typical coffee shop. And it's because of a lack of education. And I would, I would talk to farmers 06:23 and say, you need to educate yourself on what happens in your soil. I've got a book laying right here on my desk next 06:29 to me when weeds talk, and it's very much outside the box thinking things like that. 06:34 And there's one agronomist talks about doing studies, and they talk about, in the best case scenario, dry fertility will stay, uh, available in your soil for up 06:43 to 90 days in a tough base saturation area, or a tough scenario might only be a few hours. So a and this is exactly what Titan is talking about. 06:52 That study shows you right there the effects that the soil can have on that dry fertility. And, and so we need to take steps to make 07:00 that fertility available and to make sure that we're not wasting those input dollars, especially when you're talking $4 December corn. 07:07 Is that really what the pitch is? Um, because it seems to me this day and age, of course, 07:12 I've learned a lot agronomically Scott since I joined these guys. But if I've got light sandy soils, um, 07:19 and I'm flinging out the rocks, as you say, unprotected, untreated in October, November, 07:25 I don't have a ghost chance in hell with those fertility, uh, numbers are still gonna be there in 07:30 May when I need them. Am I right? Um, you're not wrong, unfortunately. And, and, and again, uh, phosphorus is, 07:38 and Kelly referenced it earlier, there's a, a, a multitude of factors that limit the availability of phosphorus, 07:44 organic matter, soil type pH uh, clay content in the soil. Uh, so all we're trying to do, 07:51 and phosphorus unfortunately, is, is highly inefficient. It's also highly needed in the crop. 07:56 So if it's only 20 to 30% available in year one, how can we marginally increase that availability? So the plant has a greater opportunity to, 08:06 to increase soil levels and, and plant tissue levels that lead to yield The benefit of Titan XC is that it, it's, 08:12 it keeps the product around longer, but it also makes it more available when the times should come. 08:16 Correct. So if you're, if you're looking at a fertility spend, and this is where, uh, Kelly has been big on this, 08:24 if you are gonna cut back, this is allow, does something like this allow you to cut back? Yes. This allows you 08:31 to cut back because it's more available. You can become more efficient and uh, and you can, you can work on things like that. 08:38 How much would you consider cutting back? You did a nitrogen reduction study? We talk about a lot in case the listener has never heard us 08:44 before, where you went down, you know, 20% less, 50% less, and you went down to a complete reduction, uh, of elimination 08:54 Hydrogen. I cut it all the way to zero, and that was $143 an acre loser versus what we consider the grower standard practice of 180. 09:02 But we also had trials out there. This is on anhydrous pounds per acre. Again, 180 was the grower standard practice, 61 21 80, 09:10 and 240 pounds of anhydrous. And the 60 through two 40, all rates replicated three times. So really 12 trials, 09:17 12 samples all yielded within five bushel of each other. I, I think we're grossly over applying nitrogen. 09:24 I think we're probably grossly over applying dry fertility. That I apologize to Scott. 09:29 I agree retail doesn't like it when I say that, but if you educate yourself and really get into the details and know what you can figure out to gain efficiency, 09:37 and you said earlier that we talk about that too much, but gain efficiency to maximize our ROI. Yeah. And a product like Titan really helps 09:46 because we're making the fertility more available and the Titan is less expensive than the dry fertility. What a wonderful tool. 09:54 Well, I guess I think it's kind of fun. This is a matter, I get it, you know, of, of syntax and whatever, but when we say efficiency gets pound in your 10:02 head everywhere in agriculture, I like in terms of, since we're talking about sustainability, I think utilization, when I start sitting in through some 10:10 of your agronomy sessions and I hear that we're only, we're only getting 30% of applied fertility into the plant, I think, good god, 10:19 let's talk about utilization. Any other business, if you threw 30% of, of a cost of goods out and got, or sorry, a hundred percent out 10:28 and got 30% return, you'd be like, what the, what the hell's going wrong? You know, what's fix the warehouse? 10:32 I mean, something's wrong here. Walmart wouldn't go for that, would they? Yeah. Walmart wouldn't go for that. We, we accept it. 10:39 I agree. And we accept it. I know. So, so let's find a way to not put out as much in this example, dry fertility 10:47 and get a bigger utilization of it. There. There's the term of the day. Yeah, I like utilization. What we're trying 10:52 to do, Scott, here's the thing. So using Kelly's nitrogen study, yeah, again, that's the next boogeyman we think regulation. 10:59 And we're gonna get to the question about regulation. 'cause in my opinion, and I'm been around this ag thing for a couple of days, and my projection is 11:08 that in the next five years, we are absolutely gonna see nutrient management plans on every farm in this country. 11:15 Just like the dairyman that has a huge dairy operation that rents my farm ground. He has to have a nutrient management plan as it pertains 11:22 to his manure lagoons, and good guy, he is got people out there in hazmat suits watching him that day is coming for fertility, period. 11:30 So we're talking about getting ahead of the curve, hence cutting the curve here. But nitrogen's, the new boogeyman, 11:35 your product doesn't treat nitrogen, but what do he thinks next after nitrogen's gonna be phosphorus? 11:41 I think in particular, I Phosphorus is as big a boogieman as nitrogen. If you go to the great lakes, if you go to temples, 11:48 things like that, phosphorus is also the boogieman. And you have to figure out How to utilize more of it, 11:54 because you can't, I, I know that, you know, you've gotta be careful about the stand you take on the regulatory environment that's coming. 12:02 But products that maximize utilization, which thereby reduces applied, we never worried about it because A, there wasn't the pressure 12:12 and the scrutiny environmentally, and b, it was cheap. Now more than ever, it's got an environmental and an economic play on how I can reduce applied fertility. 12:20 Right? That's absolutely right. And I think, and again, what rate can P and K be, uh, uh, pounds applied, be reduced 12:30 and still, uh, you know, attain a positive ROI? It's a bit open for debate, but what I can tell you is we've done a, again, the product, 12:39 the technology's been available for 12 years. Um, we've sold it from coast to coast, in fact in South America, Canada, and Australia as well. 12:46 So we have a, a pretty good understanding of of, of where that inflection point is. 12:51 And what, what I can tell you, uh, if we reduce whatever the recommended, uh, remote removal rates of p and K would be, by reducing that rate by only 10%, 13:02 we achieve, uh, a number of trials, about a six to seven bushel advantage in corn. Um, we've got other instances where just for, uh, the sake 13:12 of understanding reduced or, or, or compared that to a double the rate of fertilizer, the yields are the same. 13:18 So, and Kelly said it well, uh, titan's not magic, uh, but it does cost less on a per acre per ton basis than what fertilizer does. 13:26 And if it makes your phosphorus and potash more available in the long run, long run, we're, we're doing something positive for, 13:32 for the environment as well as the yield. Okay, well, the, the regulation is coming, and we're gonna get that in a second, 13:38 but just to, to use your example, you sent something so that I could look at some numbers. Kelly and I both like graphs, um, and, and, 13:45 and they're, they're, they're good here. Um, you showed example here of a 182 bushels per acre using a hundred pounds of p 13:52 and 120 pounds of K, then you used half that rate and stayed. You were a bushel, you were a bushel shy of that. 14:00 So is this, this is what I'm to take from this example is that I can cut my rate in half 14:06 and still maintain almost the identical yield. Um, I I, you, you could take that from that. But again, there is a longer term consequence perhaps in 14:16 terms of diminishing that, that that bank of P and K, but it, that 50% reduction, uh, was an extreme example, no pun intended with extreme ag, 14:25 but an extreme example to try to understand how far can we reduce the rate while not sacrificing yield. Kelly, when you've been saying you've been carrying the 14:36 torch of, we've overplayed nitrogen since I think I met you. Um, I get Scott's point that using this example that, oh, 14:43 well we we might end up mining the soil. You say, I don't really think that that's been, it's been an accusation from the coffee shop crowd forever, 14:52 that they're out there minding the soil. You think it's way less of a reality than it is a, uh, a statement. 14:59 I, I, I, you know, Scott and I have grown very close over the last couple years, so this pains me to say it, but I think it's b******t. 15:07 And we're not mining the soil, the soil's out of balance. Well, I say that that's not true everywhere. 15:12 If you go to Chad soils or mat soils, you know, we would talk about those soils are destructive, not constructive. 15:18 But in the Midwest, we have constructive soils. I do believe that we need to put on some maintenance levels of fertility. 15:25 I absolutely do. But I don't know that I was subscribed to having to build it. And I would also tell you now that the more 15:31 and more research I do in education, I get, I, uh, we talk, you know, like the example in that paper there, 15:38 that's the very beginning of an inset program that we're starting to look at with regenerative root solutions and things like that. 15:44 And I would tell you that though, I don't fully wouldn't say like, let's just cut back 50% on the fertility, 15:50 let's cut back on the dry fertility and, and put on, you know, that example. There's basically showing, you know, uh, 15:57 what would happen if we put on 200 pounds of map and pot s versus a hundred pounds of map and pot ash? And I would tell you that that reduction, 16:05 that reduction right here, I did it on my board, that reduction in that example saved the grower $55 an acre in today's fertilizer market, 16:14 and it lowers their CI score two points. And then I would tell you to take that $55, and I would tell you to spend approximately 25 on it of a, 16:23 in a foliar program, when you put, like, say, put your fungicide on, fertilizing in the R stages to me is much more important and much, 16:31 and a much bigger ROI than fertilizing in the vegetative stages. We talk about spoon feeding nitrogen all the time. 16:38 We don't talk enough about, uh, spoon feeding P and k. So, you know, Scott doesn't necessarily wanna support or wants to talk about the long-term 16:45 effects of cutting it back. He's not, he's not a hundred percent wrong. I'm also not supporting that. 16:50 I'm telling you there, there's a sustainable effect, there's a financial effect, and there's an agronomic effect. If we take some of that $55 16:59 and spend half of it in a foliar program in the R stages, and I believe there's an even bigger ROI to get them, 17:08 Scott, there's gonna be, we, you know, the word sustainability has been tossed around for more than a decade in agriculture. 17:13 And I, uh, a long time ago said, well, by the way, sustainable also has a financial component. It's neat to talk about this, 17:21 but if the numbers don't work, if an agricultural enterprise does not remain solvent, it sure as hell can't be sustainable. 17:28 I think that this is a year when we've got 40% declines projected from 2022 farm income to start talking about both sustainabilities 17:39 solvency equals sustainability as well as environmental sustainability. And I think that's the best story about something like this. 17:46 A product that makes you've been using dry fertility for your, since, since grandpa, right? Since some time after World War ii. 17:53 Now, let's talk about making it more sustainable in terms, and, and when you say that you gotta tell the farmer, 17:58 this doesn't just mean I'm out here hugging trees, sustainable is also financial solvency. Is that, is that the right approach? 18:06 I think it absolutely is. And something Kelly said that I agree with a hundred percent, uh, again, farm gate economics are, are materially differently. 18:14 They were a year ago, no one disputes that. Uh, so, so as we scrutinize every input expenditure, how are there instances 18:21 where we can generate a savings in one part of the operation or input expenses and apply those theoretical 18:29 or not theoretical real savings, redeploy those, uh, to, to an expend expenditure 18:35 that increases productivity in season? And I think Kelly's Kelly's right, you know, how can we, uh, you know, rebalance how we're allocating our input expenses 18:44 to get a greater result? You brought up environmental or sustainability programs. Kelly, you obviously are at the forefront of this. 18:50 You're the first guy to sell carbon credits. That's how you and I met, we can go on and on about that. Um, am I right on the, on the nutrient management plan 19:00 and then eventually if us, if we are right, that US Department of Agriculture, any, to get crop insurance to be involved in any program, 19:07 you have to also have a, a fertility or a nutrient management, uh, plan, et cetera. Do things like fertilizer treatments, uh, play into that, 19:18 just kinda like, I think I think of through the old days nitrogen stabilizer products. 19:23 Yeah, you know what, you've got to use this because it reduces nitrogen application and also nitrogen, uh, you know, volatilization, et cetera. 19:32 Is this the next wave and it'll be required? Yes. I don't think it's a, a big stretch to say that at all. 19:37 We've got inset programs now that, uh, Titan is looked at as sustainable. You know, we've got the company we work with, Arva 19:45 and Titan is an example of a, of a sustainable measure that you can take to, to be involved in inep programs with regenerative roots. 19:52 We're working on more of those programs right now. You look at Temple, interestingly enough, like that example there of 19:59 that 50 60 temple can only put on 52 pounds of phosphorus throughout the whole year. Mm-Hmm. So like that example, there's a real world example 20:07 of what Scott's, uh, uh, Scott's literature that he sent us was, and then you talk about, think about in my heels, we have the HEL ground, highly, 20:15 highly erodible land in the conservation program that I've gotta a farm in these hills right now, I don't think it's a far stretch to talk about the, 20:24 the nutrient management plan we've got. My neighbors with hogs are already dealing with that, and they can only put that on right now. 20:31 Why do you think that's not gonna come to the rest of agriculture? Why do you think it's not gonna get more strict? 20:36 Look at what's going on in Nebraska right now with the nitrogen in the water that's being introduced, you know, introduced into the Nebraska legislature right 20:44 now, and I think that senator asked for a hundred million dollars and she got it all the way down. 20:48 And to get that program through, she got a million dollars to go do that on a few acres. 20:53 And when that data comes back, if there's nitrogen in the water that will have national implications that, 20:58 That they well also. And, and that's it is the interesting thing. You know, Scott, we're all corn belt guys, right? 21:04 But the inclination, the the first inclination say that'll never happen here. That's a California thing. That's an East coast thing. 21:11 Well, Kelly, you're in Iowa, and I started hearing three years ago about the three counties that the Des Moines River and, and, uh, and, 21:18 and it was, it went straight County Iowa. It went straight to attributing the fertility from farms. It didn't go, they didn't go down the road 21:26 to some nickel cadmium battery plant. They came right to agriculture. And that's in Iowa. That, that's absolutely correct. 21:34 Get me outta here. Um, Scott, I, I think this is cool, by the way, a hundred millionth acre for Titan xc. Titan Xcs been on, on treated fertility products 21:45 that went out over 100 million acres. So obviously it's, it's, it's, I don't think you get to a hundred million acres in 12 years by, uh, by being, 21:54 uh, ineffective. Answer me. This, the person that's sitting there saying, yeah, I don't know if this is the year because of the money. 22:01 You already said this is the reason that you should do it. I, I would say exactly that. 22:07 Um, for those that perhaps have not used the, the technology before, the reason the, the driving reason 22:13 to use utilize this, this product, and you're like this, it's the fact there's $4 December corn and $10 November beans, uh, the efficiency 22:22 of applied nutrients becomes even more critical as, as the, as the bottom line or, or the economics tighten. 22:29 And two words I toss to you, Kelly, were sustainable. Well, you, we all know sustainability, but utilization, I think this is the story probably. 22:38 It's, it's cute to say it's just gonna be that these commodity prices for right here and right now, well, I've never seen just a three month 22:45 downturn in commodity prices. I don't think you have either. So I think sustainability and utilization of resources is going to be, um, 22:53 probably at the forefront for the next foreseeable future. Unfortunately, when we have $6 corn, uh, 23:00 a typical grower's fertilizer approach is the moron method. Let's put more on. Yeah. 23:05 And now when we have $4 futures, people are looking for ways to save money and use these lessons 23:12 and keep 'em, you know, why, why, why wouldn't you lose? Use a lesson that you lose in $4 corn to save $55 an acre 23:19 and keep that during $6 corn? I've never met anybody with too much money. And let's keep using this util utilization practices, 23:26 efficiency practices. Let's keep that ROI as high as possible. Uh, Titan works the, the greatest, 23:32 the greatest example I've ever seen with Titan. Chad Henderson had a strip-till trial replicated three times. 23:38 It was a great trial. Terrible drought that year. It was two years ago in Alabama, and Chad had a 17 bushel yield response in 80 bushel corn. 23:46 What could you do in Iowa with our soils and our environment? When Chad's getting that response there? Yeah, 23:51 Almost a 20% response in a drought in where it's a hundred degrees and, and some pretty formidable conditions. 23:57 All right, so I wanna do this. Um, I, I gotta do this through my, where I get my dry fertilizer, right, Scott? 24:03 That is correct. Uh, Titan is impregnated on dry fertilizer. It's available through nutrient ag solutions retail stores 24:10 across, uh, across your listening area, uh, all across the us. Do they get mad at you that you're actually reducing the 24:18 amount of dry fertility that they sell because you're making it more utilizable? Uh, no, but I can tell you it's, uh, for, 24:26 for an organization that, uh, uh, a substantial part of the business is selling fertilizer. It's the, the, the words. 24:33 Sometimes the answer isn't more fertilizer are tough words to, to, to begin to, to say and socialize. 24:38 But, but it's a fact. And, and again, as, as the industry changes and evolves, and Kelly's talked a lot about the sustainability angle, um, 24:46 those are words we all need to become more comfortable with. I agree. We're gonna leave it there. 24:50 Kelly Garrett, uh, one of the original fire of, uh, extreme Ag. And by the way, if you wanna learn more from guys like him 24:56 about the sustainability stuff, you know, you can become a member for just $750 a year, 750 bucks a year, become an extreme Ag member. 25:03 What's that? Get you a direct access for a question answer platform with guys like Kelly, Matt, Kevin, all of them, and ask them the questions 25:10 that you might have to go a little deeper on something like, for instance, this, on how 25:13 to get in sustainability programs, you know, getting your carbon, uh, your carbon intensity score, uh, Don, and how you can make money off of that. 25:21 And also you get direct access to them. You get also, uh, special offers. You get to go to things like 25:26 Commodity Classic last two years. You also can get, uh, the data at the end of the year, all the trials that these guys do. 25:31 Then you get access to that as a member. So just look into it. 750 bucks a year@extremeag.farm. So next time, share this 25:37 with somebody who can benefit from it. And maybe this is the year that you start thinking a lot about utilization and sustainability. 25:43 'cause you know what? Those dollars, they gotta be spent a little bit more wisely and still keep you solvent. 25:48 There's only one kind of sustainability for the environmentalist, but for you or the farmer, there's two kinds. 25:52 Sustainability means solvent. So you can live to fight another day. So next time, thanks for being here. 25:56 That's Scott Lay with Reson. Go and learn more@reson.com, I assume Reson.com or loveland products.com 26:03 Or loveland products.com. So next time, thanks for being here, and I'm Damien Mason with Extreme Ag Cutting the Curve. 26:07 That's a wrap for this episode of Cutting the Curve. Make sure to check out Extreme ag.farm for more great content to help you squeeze more profit out 26:16 of your farming operation. Cutting the curve is brought to you by Simon Innovations. Don't let your sprayer's limitations hold you back. 26:23 Visit simon innovations.com and upgrade your sprayer's capabilities now.